Episode Transcript
Hello, my name is Aziz and I'm the son of a divorced mother.
She is really my superhero.
That's why it's important for me to support women, to share their uniqueness, their personalities,
perspectives, and emotions about life.
Too many women in this world feel alone.
They worry about the judgment of others, and they struggle with their mental health.
But when they listen to the Rare Girls podcast where empowered women share their voices and
tell their stories, many women will feel inspired to live a life of freedom and overcome
all insecurities.
They will feel.
It is a safe space to find their confidence, to remember their unique beauty and to feel
their self-worth, and they will connect with the sisterhood of rare girls who encourage
their success and support their dreams.
That's what this podcast is all about.
My guest today is Anvita Bhargav.
Anvita is an Italian and Indian virologist living and working in Paris, France. Apart from being a
scientist, she is also a rocker, a pole dancer, and occasionally a poet. Anvita, how are you today?
Hello, Aziz. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. It's
an honor. It means a lot to me and I think it means a lot also to the community because
This is really a very nice initiative on your side.
So, yeah, I'm currently in Italy right now,
relaxing on the seaside for a little bit of vacation.
And then, yes, it will be back to work, back to Paris.
I love that.
I appreciate the kind words.
Thank you so much for your support.
And it makes me very curious as well to ask,
a big part of your identity is being a scientist.
and what could be considered its opposite,
which is rock and roll, ball, dance, even poetry,
which is full of emotions while science tries
to suppress emotions in order to look only at the facts.
How do you combine both?
And how did you decide to go in the scientific route
while at the same time you had so much desire
for the chaos of the rock and roll, et cetera?
That is a really, really interesting question. And allow me to disagree with you. I don't believe that all of these different activities and passions can be considered opposites, because in my case, science, as well as art and poetry and dancing music, they all stem from the same route, which for me is curiosity and creativity.
So curiosity can come in different forms.
For me, at a baseline, it is a thirst, a thirst for knowledge, a thirst for feeling, for experiences, for emotions.
And the raw emotions that you describe, yes, they can be found in poetry.
But the thirst for knowledge and just the yearning to learn more about the world and people and life and everything,
it can be very well synthesized in the concept of a scientist.
And this was something I wanted to be ever since I was a kid, actually, just seeing myself in a lab coat in a laboratory, just discovering how the world works.
And you mentioned chaos, which is a really interesting, intriguing word because it is true that we, as a species, we are so limited, I feel human beings should be humbled and should realize that there's so much that we do not know and understand.
And it is chaos. And what we can try to do is understand how it functions and not have the arrogance to say we can govern it, we can just limit it to straight fact and put it in a box.
That's not what being a scientist is about to me. So in that way, it comes closer to what being a dancer or poet is, and they all kind of function on parallel routes to me.
Thank you. So if I understood you correctly, it all comes, as you said, from being very
curious and actually to understand that life is uncontainable and something that we might
discover how it works, but we cannot be because of that the gods of the universe
or control it or change anything. It's more about you almost like being a little girl
who is exploring the outside of her house
to discover the different parts of the forest.
Everything was out there,
but it doesn't mean you created it
or that you can do something about it.
You're just discovering, oh, behind this tree,
there is a squirrel, or behind this cave,
there is like a pond or whatever it is.
Is this correct?
And how does this relate to creativity,
which is the second part after you spoke about
curiosity, because I'm curious to know how you extrapolate that
into being creative.
So, yes, your interpretation is quite correct.
This aspect of just going out there and exploring and discovering
that is what I define curiosity.
Now creativity is the second part of it is taking what you
have and what you absorb from your surroundings and transforming
it into something that is perceptible, something that
you, in your unique perspective, can create and give back to others.
So when it comes to art, it's quite easy.
Everything stems from curiosity. You take the elements, you fuse them together, you create something.
When I write poetry or when I dance, even when I simply listen to music, I'm fabricating emotions
that are mine, that are unique to me in that particular point in time,
But they can be universalized because everybody feels in one way or the other, and it's a form of communication.
It's a form of creativity. Now, in science, creativity can come can be linked to the fact that I am also somebody who is very I'm a virologist.
And after the pandemic of COVID-19, of course, that sparked even more my interest and my curiosity towards this field.
and in that case creativity is put to the service of how can we use this knowledge to improve the
conditions of mankind, of healthcare, of the planet, just human beings, animals, whatever,
how can we put this knowledge to use, but again in a very humble and not exploiting way, that's
not my way of viewing science, but I am very healthcare-oriented, I am all about understanding
in this case, viruses and maybe seeing a way of how we can use this for prevention and treatment.
So that's where the creative part steps in. I love that. I loved how you said your unique
emotions, you're fabricating them in that point in time and you can universalize it.
I want to ask more of a psychological question. Nowadays, even because of the pandemic and social
isolation, there are many women who spent a lot of time at home, even girls who crossed
into university, but they didn't go there. They stayed at home. And therefore, there is a level
of anxiety that comes from being sheltered and afraid of the unknown. There is psychologically
a thought that the only way to overcome fear is actually curiosity. Because if you're curious,
you cannot be afraid since curiosity drives you forward onto the unknown. Do you agree with this?
Or if not, how did you find your confidence
in order to be so multi-dimensional?
While some people who might have rigid thoughts,
even within the science community, they were like,
you're a pole dancer, you're not a real scientist,
or whatever it is that might be.
So tell me a bit more about your perspective on this.
Oh, okay, yeah, well, this is a tough question,
and I'm not a psychologist,
so I don't know what would be
the right appropriate answer for it,
but for sure, it was a very delicate period of time
for women, especially for young people in general,
people who are still in the universities
and the education system.
This level of uncertainty for sure it impacted all of us.
I did my PhD during the pandemic.
I graduated my PhD during the pandemic
and it was as though you were living
in this kind of parallel universe
and you're just being dragged by the situation,
by history, by things that you really cannot control.
And that is enough to send people down into a hopeless state of mind, unfortunately, yes.
So on the one hand, it is very important not to lose that curiosity, that drive, that passion, and take something negative and transform it into something powerful,
focus on whatever is the positive, focus on the fact that we are still okay.
And then we will get through this as a community, as a person, as a human being.
But of course, on paper, it's easy to say all of this.
It's not easy to put it into practice.
So from a personal point of view,
I was very impacted by the pandemic
and just in a personal head space of mine,
it was not the best time of my life.
So on the one hand,
you are aware that you can do something to get out of it,
but you cannot really do it on your own.
So that's when strength also lies in the fact
that sometimes you need to accept
that you need a helping hand to sort these thoughts out
and a helping hand can be community, first of all.
And in my case,
now this is where the pole dancing part steps in, right?
Because that's a community that is so strong.
And it was tough actually, because in Paris,
gyms and sports clubs were closed during the pandemic.
And I was doing my PhD at the same time.
So I didn't have like an external parallel venting route
to figure out, you know,
to keep my feet on the ground.
Yes, the scientific community is very strong,
but it was under a lot of pressure at the time,
you can imagine, pressure, international pressure, mediatic pressure, political pressure. So it was
the community, but everybody was at the edge of the wire, let's say. That other aspect not being
there, it was kind of a little breaking point. And that's where it's good you mentioned psychology
because I had to resort to a therapist. And I admit, and I listened to many other wonderful
ladies on your podcast mentioning the same thing, accepting that you have to go towards
that kind of psychological support is really a strong point.
And sometimes it is necessary
and there are no regrets in doing that.
And it's not really that you need help,
you just need help to figure out how to best align
and use the tools that you already have,
but you're confused, you're overwhelmed
and you don't know how to put them together.
So if there's an encouragement or advice
that I could give to people who are struggling
and are just simply a bit confused,
do not hesitate to look for professional help when necessary.
And keep that curiosity going.
If one thing is not working out,
how can you put your curiosity to,
how can you exploit your curiosity
in another direction, in another avenue
that gives you the positive feedback that you require
to say, yes, I can step up and face this today?
Thank you for that.
I agree with you so much that support
and psychological support are essential in people.
Like you mentioned, finding out the elements that they already have and reconfiguring them
in the right way so that they're stronger, which makes me think it's actually the whole
strategy of you using emotions or science, because in science you discover what exists
in order to reintegrate it or connect it together in a new way.
You spoke about transformation and venting.
So if I understood you correctly, to you, it's both.
Like, whatever exists in that moment, it could be something that inspires you, like a piece of music that gives you an individual kind of emotion, which is you transform the experience into that emotion, or you had some negative emotions that you are venting.
And then you create those into a universal experience that other people who can feel can feel with you and share with you as well.
Is this like the process where you take what exists,
you combine it in a unique personal way,
but that won't make sense to most people.
So you take it from that unique personal way
into the big universal ability that all people can connect with.
And so it creates connection with
other people and understanding at a global scale.
Did I understand correctly?
I think that's what ends up happening.
Yes, it's not intentional, let's say,
when you start putting those thoughts together and
start getting into this renting process, that's not the purpose of it. It's not the idea. Okay,
let's create something that other people can relate to. Because actually when you are feeling
overwhelmed and you're feeling suppressed by emotions, the one thing is that you feel
alien alienated. You feel alone. You feel that nobody really understands you. And
this is a very common human sentiment. So at that point, the last thing that
you're thinking is, Oh, I know the other people are suffering like me. Let's connect
them. So that's not how it goes, right? Because you feel alone. And sometimes you feel that nobody
really understands. But when you get into this healthy process of processing your feelings,
your anxieties, your emotions, that's what ends up happening. It's a very pleasant consequence
that if you do create an output, people can relate to it. People can see it. Now I'm not
saying, for example, I say I'm a pole dancer. I'm not a professional. I am not at the level
that I can go into the Olympics tomorrow by far.
But what I do makes me feel fine
when I achieve that moment of creating that,
of following that choreography
or doing a specific complicated trick on the pole.
I feel, even though it hurts physically sometimes,
it makes you feel validated emotionally and mentally.
And that is what creates the connection.
That is what resonates with another person.
May it be the person who's just who, you know,
your fellow athlete standing next to you
gives you a high five saying, yeah, you did it.
Or somebody who's watching a video saying,
oh, wow, that little piece of music,
you can see it in your expression,
you were really feeling it.
So these are the little victories.
It may not be Olympic level or competition level beautiful,
but it resonated with another person.
It gave them something enough to make them come to me
and say, wow, I felt that, good job, that was nice.
And this happens all the time
amongst all of us as a community.
And it's really, that's the sharing.
and it's just a consequence and I feel it's beautiful.
I agree with you and so many of the women who are involved within the pole dance community
that I interviewed spoke about how great it is. Hassam said this is the best community of all.
They tried all kinds of different communities even within different dance genres and it cannot
compare to the fact that within the pole dance community so many people are so supportive while
others, they could be much more competitive and selfish compared to that. To ask you,
your opinion as someone who is more analytical and scientific minded, at least in this aspect,
what do you believe are elements that allow the emergent property of the community of Paul Dens
to be so welcoming, so supportive, that maybe other communities can learn from in order to
person, whether a beginner or an advanced, feel, like you said,
validated, happy, encouraged, and never discouraged from continuing to do it?
I think, and this is my interpretation of things, you have to trace back,
trace it back to the social perception and the historic perception of pole dancing. Now,
it is emerging quite recently as a sport, as a gymnastic athletic discipline, right? So,
I am not sick. Maybe in 20 or 30 years from now, even pole dance will become that really competitive
and almost toxic environment that other sporting categories have unfortunately
been driven towards. I hope it doesn't happen because it's stemming from something that is
very nice, very welcoming, very sort of like a shelter. I think you can really trace it back to
its history and its sociological perception because first thing when somebody hears about
pole dance. Unfortunately, in the Western world, the great majority of people will think back to
lap dancing or stripper clubs or the late night bars and stuff like that, which is true,
which is a part of the history of pole dance. But as I say to everybody, to everybody who
reacts when I say I do pole dancing, at the end of the day, pole like silks, like aerial hoop
or like a trapeze, it's just the instrument and you can apply any kind of sports or
ability or dance style to it and the more you learn about it the more you
realize it's it's much more complex than what you initially think. Now this
perception is also set inside young women's mind when they approach it so
you approach it with a kind of a little bit of a fear or the sense of
rebellion like wow I'm trying this wow I'm doing it and men and women alike
right is something that you would not expect somebody to be doing in as a
and in parallel. So there's this fear, this defiance, this kind of energy of feeling a
little bit, a little bit immortal saying like, I'm a pole dancer. And the company welcomes
you because you know that sometimes people reaching out to this community are coming
from a place where they feel insecure, where they're not accepted, where they need
something more. And for women in particular, many have spoken to many women who have body
image issues, who have confidence issues, who have, who are really, really shy, which
something you would not even think you would not associate shyness to pole dancing. But I can really
tell you there's so many girls who just who come like walking in looking so small and then you
watch them grow and evolve and become like in any other sports because once when you learn
you realize how strong you are you realize how many things you can do and you start
building up on that and realizing okay this is who I am this is why it can be and it's
conditioning, we can say, which it's true that it's good that we need to eliminate.
But in a little private way, I sort of hope it stays because it creates that kind of family
welcoming environment where you allow people to develop and just become proud of themselves.
Thank you for that.
I love it.
And to ask even more, because you said people will become proud of themselves.
Not speaking psychologically, just your own journey and experience.
How was your journey of you finding your self-confidence, daring to do so many things out of your own initiative
rather than being influenced and worrying about the expectations of other people or the opinions of other people?
Because other women could be inspired from that.
Maybe they worry, they think, oh, if I do something, my parents will be disappointed,
or if I do something, my scientific colleagues will be shocked or whatever it is,
and therefore they don't live their life fully.
To you, how was that journey?
How did you deal with a bit sometimes of extra shyness that you developed into confidence
and your journey of being proud of who you are?
It's a complex journey and I cannot say that I have reached that level fully yet because
there are good days and there are bad days.
There are days when you feel like superwoman and days where you feel like, oh my God,
like everything is just, I am not all that, right?
but it's a constant journey and there's no destination
because as you grow and as you live new experiences,
you always constantly have to work on that.
And it's not easy.
And I consider myself lucky
because I have always relatively had support
from even scientific colleagues,
or even if the family,
my parents know that I am a pole dancer,
perhaps not all of the aspects of pole dancing.
I'm not somebody who lies,
but I tend to filter the truths to shelter the people around me just because I know there are
some categories of people who might not understand something. So the bottom line of all of this
is that at the end of the day, the opinions of other people matter, right? But they should not
matter to the point that they should stop me from doing what I want to do and what makes
me feel myself. So the other people's opinions matter because the people who care about you
want you to be responsible, want you to be safe, want you to be the best version of
want you to have a good, strong, safe life, perfect.
That's all that matters to them.
If there's something else that in their opinion,
they don't like, that's not my problem anymore.
I am following, I'm living up to their expectations.
I'm doing, I'm following in those guidelines.
And if beyond that, I wanna do other things
that make me feel me,
that's not any of their business anymore.
I stick to that.
And sometimes, yes, I do get that raised eyebrow
or that sneaky comments from colleagues or some remark.
I like it.
I am proud of being eccentric. I am proud of not fitting into a box.
I am proud of surprising people, like just being there and say,
ah yeah, really? Yeah, well, yeah, this is who I am.
Want to know more? We can talk. That's it.
Thank you for that. That was really inspirational.
And I'm wondering whether, I'm curious about this,
whether being multicultural, because sometimes when you are multicultural,
you don't fit in within any culture at the same time.
And therefore you're like, I already don't fit in.
So I might as well be myself.
So from the three dimensions of being Indian, Italian,
and living in France, so it's like so many cultures
at the same time, can you speak about that?
And would you recommend to women a kind of pilgrimage
where they should go try living somewhere else in order
to be free from the stimuli that
might come from an environment that
was oppressive to them, so even though they try to change,
is the habits that will be triggered,
but going to a new place,
it could be like a fresh start and a blank slate
where they can start and be themselves.
Just please share a bit more about that
because I am also multicultural
and I know I never felt I fit in any of the culture
and therefore it was already like,
well might as well be fully myself
since I'm not going to get any of that validation anyway.
Oh my God, you completely hit the mark.
you're like me, you're a citizen of the world, right?
And it's true, it's true.
You never fully fit in anymore.
You never really feel that you can call one place
home fully anymore.
There's always this part that when you go to a place,
like right now, I am currently talking to you
from Sicily, which is this beautiful island
in the south of Italy where I grew up,
I did my school, but then I left it at some point.
I even came in later because I was born in India.
So yes, I do call this my home,
but there's a part of my heart
that is now a little bit in Paris, a little bit in India,
and I've lived a bit here and there,
it will never be whole.
And as you said, yes, this can be a bit sad sometimes,
but it's that kind of a melancholic, pleasant sadness.
It's not sadness, it's a realization.
So yes, you don't fit in,
but you might as well take it and run with it, right?
And if I recommend this to other people, absolutely yes.
I have this friend who once said,
you know, the Erasmus program,
which is this thing that sends students in Europe
from one country to the other, he said,
after he came back, he said,
the Erasmus should be something that should be prescribed
by a doctor to every student.
And this was a sentence that really stuck with me
because he could not have said it better.
It is such a eye-opening, it is mind-opening.
And just to come into contact with a different place
and a different culture and a different language
and talk to people makes you see yourself
in the bigger context, which is the world, right?
it makes you feel small but at the same time so powerful because there are so many options out
there. You don't have to be in your little town with those rules, with those, let's say mindset
that has been imposed upon you by generations and generations. No, you can be you. You can be
whoever you want to be. Go out there, meet people, learn from them, take the best of
everything that you can have and create, again, fabricate your version of yourself.
And if you're happy with it, that's all you need, really.
I agree one billion percent. Really. If you are happy with who you are, that's what really matters because even if you make other people happy or satisfied, but you're dead inside, that doesn't at all matter.
Your own happiness and then the right people will align with you. So it's not really a lonely experience to be authentic. It's actually a magnetic situation where you draw in the right people.
So I might just want to add something. I don't want to cut you off. I don't want this to come off as something like toxic positivity because it sounds like something that's really great. Go explore the world. Do it. But it's not easy.
And I think you and I can both agree on the fact that at the end of the day, it is hard. It is hard to be in a place where you don't fully fit in, where you don't really completely match the culture of the people who are living around you.
It's not easy, but it is something that is useful and it builds strength of character
and you can really improve on your life with that.
But nobody ever said it was easy.
So if anybody's ever feeling sad or lonely or down, it is completely normal and it's
okay to be in that place.
Just don't stay there.
Get up and put your head up and just talk.
Thank you so much, Anvita.
It was my privilege and my honor to have you in this podcast, to share part of your
soul, your perspective.
I wish you all the success, all the satisfaction of your endless curiosity and to keep growing,
to keep going. And thank you for participating. Thank you so much Aziz once again for this
opportunity. I am really, really humbled and I hope this reaches somebody who,
you know, as we mentioned before, it connects with somebody. That's the biggest achievement ever.
