Episode Transcript
Hello, my name is Aziz and I'm the son of a divorced mother.
She is really my superhero.
That's why it's important for me to support women to share their uniqueness, their personalities,
perspectives and emotions about this world.
In these difficult times in human history, we need to bring the people of the world together.
And when we hear the voices of women, when we listen to real lives of women from other
countries, we connect our cultures without differences or stereotypes and we get inspired
by their stories to live a better life.
That's what this podcast is all about.
My guest today is Josephine Kiaga.
Josephine is a Tanzanian-American freelance film producer and the co-owner of Kiagraphy Media LTD.
Living in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, she acquired a unique sense of storytelling and was able to
non-Western filmmaking at an early age.
After she was awarded with the BTEC Student of the Year for her thought-provoking creative media
in 2019 ceremony and attended that ceremony in London, it pushed her to go to university in the
UK. She completed her BFA in film production with a first class and now has moved on to continue
freelancing. She specializes in short films, music videos, documentaries, and producing
photoshoots for her company. Most recently, she was a producer for a film commissioned by the
U.S. Embassy Tanzania, exploring the taboo of HIV-AIDS treatment throughout the ineffective
drama short film with some of Tanzania's best. It was educational, daring, and women-led,
these are the projects that she enjoys being part of the most. Josephine is currently a mentee in
the Black Book Programme UK, learning from her UK-line producer mentor, and she is internally
developing a lot of projects, notably a documentary, a play, and several poetic short films,
which will be doing their festival film circuits this year as well. As a filmmaker, she intends
to continue her work as an artist while upholding artistic integrity that aligns with her feminist,
pan-African sexual and gender equality-based mindset throughout all her work, and she is
looking forward to what the future holds. Josephine, how are you today? I am doing fantastic,
thank you so much for having me. I am honoured. I am very, very lucky and excited to speak with
you and to have this conversation, so I'll begin with this nice first question. You, as Josephine,
have lived in different places. If your friends could describe your personality, what would they
say about you? Okay, that's a really interesting question. I can say what I hope they would say,
and I hope that they would say that I'm a giving and generous friend. I'm very talkative,
but I do carve out time to listen. I'm empathetic, and I really like getting into emotions. I have
few friends because I feel like I care so deeply for people. I will go above and beyond for my
friends. If I have two loaves of bread and that's the last thing I have to eat, then I will give my
friend one. I like to be that type of person because I feel like friendship is just so serious,
so I would hope they would describe me that way. And hopefully they think I'm funny, because I do
joke around a lot, and if they don't think I'm funny, then I must be one of the most annoying
people that they've ever met. That's funny, actually. Thank you for sharing your sense of
humor. And it makes me think, since you're in love with emotions and speaking about them,
delving deeper into them, is that something that both shaped the way that you approach filmmaking
and is something that you try to convey in everything you do? Can you share how is your
personality expressed through your artistic work? Oh, wow. Okay, I think that's a great question. I
definitely think that it's something that I try to integrate into my day-to-day life in general,
just because growing up in a Tanzanian society, I would say that sharing emotions isn't necessarily
taboo, but it's not necessarily something that is pushed forth. Like, we have more of a like,
oh, well, you know, life is hard, but just keep it moving type of attitude. So there wasn't many
times that I often like just stopped and reflected. And having experienced the pandemic, it actually
slowed me down so much in my life, where I was just like, alone, and I was in university, and like
everyone, like I had, I was in a six bedroom apartment, and all five of my roommates left,
and I was alone. So I was in this huge place by myself. And I felt like it was the first time in
my life, I was really forced to stop and reflect. And it's been something that, because it was kind
of at the beginning of when I started film school, it definitely was integrated later into my
filmmaking. And I feel like my favorite scenes are those scenes where the emotions are gritty
and real. And when it's an expression of emotions, it's not always beautiful. Sometimes there's tears,
and sometimes they're harsh truths. But I think ultimately, that is like some of the beauty of
life. And when you watch something where you get to experience that you as a person, regardless of
if you're the same gender as me, if you grew up where I grew up, you'll understand that just
emotions, you know, and so it's definitely something I tried to integrate into my filmmaking
always. Thank you. It seems to me that communication, even beyond videography, etc,
is very important to you, even with your friends, and it's about being understood through emotions.
Is this correct? Yes, absolutely. And so are you someone who like, you want to experience the full
range of emotions in life? You want the pain and the suffering and the joy and the glory? Or
do you prefer to keep it within a range of positivity and therefore limited but keep it
good? Or do you go for everything and you're like, if I don't cry sometimes, then I'm unhappy?
Well, I think almost all of the above, I would say. Like, I don't think that life can come with
only positivity. And I think that if I force myself to pretend that every single day I was
super happy and I'm super content with everything that I'm in, I wouldn't be able to motivate
myself to like, work sometimes. Because sometimes my motivation is like, okay, I'm not happy with
the current situation that I'm in. I don't necessarily think that I'm exactly where I
want to be in life. And so as a result, I'm going to make sure I push myself to continue to work
hard. It's like, if you don't, if you're not happy with the situation, then keep going. So I feel
like if I was super happy all the time, then I'd just chill. Like, I wouldn't really need to do
anything or progress in life or like, meet new people. You know, I think sometimes the negativity,
not only can it be used for art, which I think a lot of artists do, which is just like sort of
taking that and pushing it towards your art and being able to mold it and be like, you know what,
I went through a really tough experience. And as a result, it has inspired me to create. So I feel
like there's also that factor of it where it's like, it can inspire you to create, it can inspire
some of like, my favorite music is super sad and melancholic and reminiscent. And you know,
something like what you're doing right now, you know, I'm sure the divorce is not necessarily
something that you would want to wish for, but look, it has sprung up this beautiful podcast
where you get to meet all these beautiful people. So it's like, without the pain, could we have,
you know, the pleasure and the joy? I agree 100%. And I will take it even further that people who
have not experienced loss and pain, they become too naive to be wise and interesting.
And so the most interesting people are those who have had some difficulties in the past.
And so to ask you, maybe, I don't know whether you considered this before or not,
do you tend to be fascinated by people's problems, dramas, losses, issues, failures,
even more than their successes, that maybe when you explore a character or speak with a friend,
you tend to go that route? Or is this just a part of the whole picture and not one of the main
focuses? Well, I definitely think that I've always been like an observer. Ever since I was young,
I would like, okay, so I sort of, I grew up like all over the place a little bit,
because like my mother worked in the United Nations. And as a result, we sort of got moved
around a bit because my father worked in the United Nations. It's kind of a bit of a story.
Anyways, the point is, I kind of grew up in Tanzania for a little bit, I was born in the
States. And then I grew up in Tanzania for a little bit, then I lived in Addis Ababa,
and then I came back to Tanzania. And in that I sort of didn't really learn my, like my country's
language of Kiswahili until I was like, far older, like I could have grown up like speaking it,
because I grew up in Ethiopia from when I was about four to eight, I actually spoke Amharic,
which is their national language. So when I came to my actual home country, I was super confused,
because I didn't speak the same language as everyone. And so as I was learning, I would
just sort of sit back and listen. And my favorite thing to do was like when I'd get my hair done,
because I'd be at the salon for like eight to 13 hours, like you're just there all day.
And so I would just listen to these stories and the drama of like, the guy who lives down the
street, who's like, we found out that he's sleeping with, you know, and I'm just like,
oh, no, like, really? Like the lady who works there, like, there's no way. And I didn't know
how to speak it, but I did know how to listen. And so that's why I feel like when I speak about
a unique sense of storytelling, I sort of learned to speak in this hyperbolic way and like lots of
pauses and gasps and sound effects. And just understanding how to communicate in that way,
I feel like genuinely shaped and molded the way that I understood my favorite type of storytelling.
And so I feel like the dramas and the highs and the lows are things that I certainly search for,
even when I'm watching things like I do like them, but I don't like them without a cause.
I don't feel like you should just throw characters into like bad or negative situations for no reason.
I definitely feel like there's success needs to be mixed into that in order for you to create
a realistic character, because you can't just lose all the time. There's little wins that sort of
need to be integrated in order for the audience to feel like they're going on a roller coaster
of sorts and like going through all of these different emotions. And I definitely feel like
even in playing around with the tone of your film, like playing around with the music,
playing around with the way that you're color grading, playing around with everything, like
you need to be able to have those dynamics in order to really create like a fleshed out
visual masterpiece. Thank you. And that makes me think there are many or some storytellers,
at least, who believe that in reality, there are no stories, but the brain needs to put the
structure of story in order to make sense of reality. And that's why stories, the purpose of
them, when people are an audience watching your movie or whatever, it's to experience a moment of
clarity where everything is simple, makes sense, where everything is as expected and there is a
happy ending at the end. Or, of course, you'll say sometimes there's like an anti-hero and a
sad ending, but on average. And therefore, it gives them a moment where they feel everything
makes sense so that they're recharged to return to life with more confidence because they feel,
oh, wow, I experienced that sense of clarity. So life is not chaotic after all and return with
more peace and less anxiety. Do you agree with this or what's your perspective on like the purpose,
the enchantment, the joy of receiving a story or its importance? I think, you know, I agree with it
like to an extent. I actually had this discussion with someone the other day because I was sort of
pitching a film and they asked me like, what's the purpose of it? And I think it's really
interesting because sometimes I don't believe in purposeless filmmaking. I don't really truly
believe that anybody makes something with no intention at all and like doesn't want it to
like as long as you want it to have a certain outcome, so long as you want somebody to like
take a certain thing away, then you do have a perspective and you are trying to say something.
And I think that it doesn't always have to be. I mean, like, you know, you said you have the
exceptions where it's like sad sometimes and it ends with like an anti-hero or something. But
I think that sometimes people search for a more black and white, like moral type of story where
like you watch something and like it's about somebody who doesn't give to somebody and then
suffers in the end. And then at the end, you take away that, wow, I should be more charitable.
But sometimes I'm watching somebody sort of talk about how they're depressed and have a mental
illness for about 15 minutes. And it's a short film called Anxiety. And they didn't necessarily
get uplifted at the end. But what I did take away from it was that for a second, I got to relate to
someone. And for a second, I got to feel like what I'm undergoing right now is not all that,
like I'm not the only person undergoing it. So I feel like, I don't know, it's like the reasoning
for film for me is such a grand conversation that you could have for hours because it's like
what you take away from it is the reasoning for it. And I think with every single piece of art,
you can say the same thing, even for fine art, like paintings, et cetera. Like the painter might have
a certain intention, yet you might see it and take away something else. So how can you say that
there is like only one intention? You know what I mean? It's like, it's really interesting to me.
I don't know. I almost feel like I have a, like I agree to an extent, but at the very same time,
I feel like some types of film are not necessarily to deliver any type of like moral messaging or
compass, but sometimes they're to express an emotion, which in and of itself is some type
of message. I understand. And I love this topic. This is going to be very, very fascinating.
And just to speak even further to you, do you feel since you spoke about it as art,
that you should not try to control the message of the movie, the film, and let each person have
their own interpretation so that it's richer? Or what do you think about some people who set on
to structure everything so that they control what people take out of a story or a movie,
so that it just works as a almost a propaganda piece or a convincing machine for their worldview?
What's your perspective? Well, I think exactly what you said about the latter,
like sort of using it as a propaganda piece. I would say that if you're going to create something
and trying to force things on somebody's throat, you probably have that intention,
to create some kind of perspective of a group of people. But exactly what you said in the
beginning is definitely what I agree with and resonate with more. I just think that every,
I think a filmmaker or any type of creator for art, a painter, a pottery, pottery sculptor,
potter, I just realized I don't know the word for that. But yeah, any person who takes art in any
way, I think that, you know, in some ways you should have your messaging and you should have
your intention because it's your reason to create. In filmmaking, a lot of the time they use the
term premise, like what is the premise of this? The movie itself might be about a girl who meets
a boy who they run away together and then something happens with the girl. But the actual premise of
the film is like trust no one. And it is the thing that runs through the entire film. And it's the
thing that holds it together. And I think that it's really important for you to have that through
line so that you can create something, especially with the film, like you need something to like
guide you because it's an extremely long process sometimes. And if you don't have anything to guide
you, like I've seen films oftentimes just disappear from like, you'll hear, oh, marketing for this
film coming out in 2023. And then you just never see it. And it's like what happened in between
there had to have been some kind of, you know, division or some like getting off of the rails
and the track system that they had put forward. So I think that's important, but I think that the
creative process, a lot of the times it's about letting go. And I've learned a lot of that from
filmmaking. It's, you know, I've gone in writing a script with a specific intention. And then as
it goes on, it keeps growing and I get comments and feedback and it changes. And if you're not
able to, to let go, even for that audience member to take something away, then I feel like you're
And if you police that and you try to like put them in a cage,
you're pushing away certain people that could really take in what you want because
expressing yourself through your art is really hard. You're really being vulnerable. You're
taking a piece of yourself and you're showing it to the world. And you're being like, Hey guys,
I hope you like it. And that can be very, very difficult because as much as like I,
as an audience member can also rag on TV shows that I don't like and see like people on social
media, just hundreds and thousands of likes, like the show sucks. I hate this. You know,
that is somebody trying to share their work with the world as well. So I think that, you know,
it's really difficult to put yourself out there and you shouldn't do it as an artist with the
expectation of people to receive it a certain way, or you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
Like you just know what your reason is. You release it and then just let the world see it
the way they want to. Very, very true. Thank you so much, Josephine. And now let's discuss a little
bit. As basically a third culture kid, someone like you said, you grew up in Ethiopia, yet
originally you're from Tanzania and you're mixed with the US. How is that? Do you see it as a
superpower because it allows you to open yourself to listen and understand many multiple cultures?
And so you're adaptable? Or do you see it as something that causes a sense of like
loss of navigation or of guidance or of a compass? And therefore, in many ways,
it pushed you or was the catalyst of your hero's journey in order to discover yourself and make
sense of that incomplete cultural integration into a self-integration. I know I said a lot,
but you're familiar with the hero's journey, so I know you'll understand.
Yeah, I think, I honestly think it's a bit of both. Honestly, I feel like it has been a
superpower. Like I went to an international school when I was here. And what that means
is essentially that the program that was taught at the school is not of this country. So although
I was in Tanzania, I was actually learning the British curriculum. And so the people at the
school were sometimes like British kids who had moved all the way from like England to Tanzania.
And then like, sometimes it'd be like kids from all over the world. And I was so used to that.
I was so accustomed to that, that it wasn't strange to me. Like it was like, oh yeah,
my friend is Sikh. Like what? Like, why would that even be a thing? You know what I mean?
I'm like, obviously it's Ramadan. So we're going to say Ramadan. Like I don't understand
any other way. And then I went to the UK and I spent three years there. And I remember like my
first Ramadan and like, I'm not Muslim myself, but like I have Muslim friends. And so usually like
during the time, like I'm over here waiting for my invite, you know, I'm like, who's going to
invite me to Iftar? Like who's going to invite me to get the food? And in the UK, at least from,
I'm not speaking on all of England, obviously, but my personal experience,
I didn't really have, like, I didn't feel like it was celebrated everywhere. Like,
I didn't feel like, oh, it's Ramadan, obviously. Like in Tanzania, if you drive around,
during Eid, during Ramadan, you'll see signs everywhere. Like, you know what I mean?
Like it would be like Eid Mubarak, Eid Mubarak, Eid Mubarak. Because here, you know, although
there's a Christian, like sort of part of the country, there's also a huge Islamic part of
country. And it's just been something, like even during Diwali, like the streets in specific areas
will be covered in things and nobody even minds. Nobody thinks twice. It's like, obviously you
guys are going to celebrate your holiday. You know what I mean? Like, obviously people are
going to celebrate the Chinese lunar year. There's no issue. But then when I went to the UK,
I saw for the first time sort of like a society that like didn't, I don't know,
they didn't really cater to everyone. They didn't really put up signs everywhere. It was like, oh,
this specific place is acknowledging Eid, but then everywhere else isn't. And it was really
interesting to me because it's just not something that I grew up with. And I found a lot of people
being like marveled at, I don't know, like different cultures and all this stuff that I
didn't really necessarily feel. So I didn't even realize it was a superpower until I was
among people who didn't experience that, who like have never really left their country. Some people
I met and like some people had only, you know, taken trains to other cities. Like, it's like,
oh my gosh, you came from another continent. Oh my goodness. And I'm like, yeah, girl,
you know, I came to study like you don't do that. Like you don't just fly to other continents in
order to like get a degree. Like, oh, that's so interesting. I guess we really come from two
different worlds. So I definitely feel like it's a superpower, but in what you said about, you know,
not really, I don't know, like almost not having a foundation in some weird ways. Like I was born
in the States, but like, I've never been in America for like more than a year or two. And that's so
strange to me because like, I'm American, you know what I mean? So like I should spend time in
America, but like, I don't really know how to be American. Like I've never been American before,
but I am American. Um, but I'm in Tanzania all the time, but I'll never be Tanzania. Like no
matter what I do, I'm never going to just become a Tanzanian person. So it's super interesting to
me because like, I'm from these different worlds and I feel like it's helped me understand people
more and emphasize with different people of different cultures. And it's also allowed me
to move around the world more being secure in like my, I don't know, my all sorts of the world
mixedness. Like, I'm just like, you know, at the end of the day, I am me. And I feel like that is
the only thing I know. So let me just keep going with that. And I'm going to be as Tanzanian as I
can and as American as I can and as whatever I say can, you know, as it accommodates me in my life.
But I'm also very glad that I went to the UK and I didn't, everyone thought I was going to get a
British accent, but my accent didn't change even slightly.
Thank you. That's, I love this story. It makes you a very colorful character and a very rich
kind of person that is able to do a lot. And look, right now you're spending your time in many ways
between the UK and I assume between Tanzania. Why? What do I mean with that? I mean, is like,
what value do you find in that compared to going on and becoming a nomad, vagabonding all over the
continent and for this, you know, searching for new stories? Why specifically are you returning
there rather than like you said, you don't know how to be American, why not go to the US and
develop that side of you? Why not stay in the UK and save yourself a lot of headaches or
go backpacking in Bali and film yourself, your journey of like, eat, pray, love, or
what was the decision based on? Well, yeah, I think that's a really interesting question
in which my parents definitely posed to me the second I told them that I felt strongly about
moving back. First of all, my experience in the UK, unfortunately, was just not that pleasant.
I didn't really enjoy staying in England, in Manchester specifically, where I had lived
just because of like some things that I'd gone through at the time and I didn't really feel that
this was a place that I wanted to live and I really felt like I wanted a change. And oddly
enough, I felt like I could do more in my career in Tanzania than I could when I was in Manchester,
because I started seeing how it was going. It was like, I was only going to get hired for minimum
wage jobs because I had just come out of uni and you know, you're only going to get paid £10.95.
Now, there's a lot of like layers to this, like first and foremost, I'm a foreign student.
I currently live abroad and my parents like want to support me throughout university,
but the second the university is done, it's different. Now I'm no longer a student and now
I have to pay different types of taxes to the UK. Now I get different types of prices for
apartments and so living life there would be extremely expensive on minimum wage. Most people
live at home and they live with their families and live with their moms, their uncles, their
dads, or they share apartments with their friends. But like, I wasn't, I didn't have that setup. So
living in the UK was actually not as easy as like, one might think like, oh, you did you, you need,
you need there to stay there. It's like, well, money, you know, like that's the truth of life.
It's money. Things are expensive. And living there as a foreigner was extremely expensive.
And you have to go through a lot. Like you have to get a lot of people to checks and balances,
people treat you differently. People might not want you in their apartment. Like it's, it's a lot.
And then on top of that, with the States on a personal level, I, I don't know, I think a part
of me is just like afraid. Maybe the propaganda beast of the news has truly gotten to me. Like
almost every single day, America becomes a scarier place for people to live in general. And I don't
know why moving there when many people want to move out just feels reductive. Like if I got,
if I got like a job or if I got work, like if there was a prospect for me, then I would,
but with Tanzania, it's like, well, at least I have a place to live and somebody's going to feed me
while I work. And I think that's just sort of what happened. It's like the reality of life.
Like I can dream and like live, laugh, love and go to Bali, but like, who's paying? Who's paying
for that trip to Bali? And I mean, um, who's paying for that visa? Who's paying for that
flight ticket? Um, and my parents really discouraged me from taking loans as well.
Cause I'm American. So I would have to go through like the FAFSA US government system.
And I have a lot of family members who like went to Yale and Harvard and as amazing as it was,
like they're still paying it off till today, 20, 30 years later, they have kids,
their kids are in uni and they're still paying off their student loans because
that is how big that sort of US loan system can get. So I think like, honestly, it's like,
I don't know. It's like as much as I'd love to sugarcoat and be like, Oh my gosh,
it's going to stay to be free. Like, I do want to do that. In fact, I have to do that because,
um, as a like American passport holder, I can no longer live here for a while.
So I will eventually have to move to America. And I feel like I'm gearing myself up now in this
period of time in my life where I feel like I'm much older, I'm much wiser. I understand taxes.
I understand what not and not to do in terms of loans. I understand credit cards. I understand
like all of those things. And I feel a little bit more prepared to go to America. Whereas I feel
like when I was younger, I don't know, there was something that really intimidated me about that
particular place. Like I had only gone to America on vacation. So I feel like I never really got to
like see it for what it was. And then everything that I read was like terrifying. I was like,
Oh gosh, I don't know. I didn't want to get, you know, yeah.
I can really, really imagine. And Josephine, just to finish this off,
since we spoke about your past, your present, well, the future, what plans, at least, you know,
even if they're tentative plans, do you have for the future? Where do you see yourself going or at
least which direction in order to learn more about yourself so that you know where to go next?
Where people can follow your journey? Where can they find out more as well?
Well, they can certainly start by following me on Instagram,
at MissKiaga, because more than likely I'll be updating everything there.
And I will usually link my website and stuff through my Instagram. So it's a super easy way
to find me. But in terms of what is in the future for me, I think it's a lot of in-house company
work. I'm a big advocate for sort of in quote, taking yourself seriously. And I think that
a lot of the times people are scared because they're like, Oh, I'm just a small company.
Like, what can I do? But I have a lot of big plans. So I plan to release a lot of things.
And I hope that through social media and other like competitions and residencies that I'll be
entering, mentorship programs, et cetera, I'll be able to find better ways to continue to navigate
my future. But certainly keep up with me on social media. I have got a lot of projects coming and a
lot of poetry films that we tend to produce constantly. And so, yeah.
Thank you, Josephine. It was my privilege and my honor to have you in this podcast,
to share your voice and your perspective and your interesting both background as well as
the way you approach storytelling, filmmaking. I wish you all the success. And thank you again.
Thank you so much for having me, Aziz. It's a privilege and I can't wait to continue to keep up with the pod.
