Episode Transcript
Hello, my name is Aziz and I'm the son of a divorced mother.
She is really my superhero.
That's why it's important for me to support women to share their uniqueness, their personalities,
perspectives and emotions about this world.
In these difficult times in human history, we need to bring the people of the world together.
And when we hear the voices of women, when we listen to real lives of women from other
countries, we connect our cultures without differences or stereotypes.
And we get inspired by their stories to live a better life.
That's what this podcast is all about.
My guest today is Elisaveta Shelestova.
Elisaveta is an international relations student at Taras Shevchenko National University, living
and from the Kiev region, Ukraine.
She is interested in NGOs and communication, and she is the head of the Institute of International
Relations Debate Club.
She is a Tech4All student advisor alumna, a member of the Debate Federation of Ukraine,
an active worker in the field of NGOs management, the co-author of Teach4All's e-book,
What Leadership Do We Need Now?, and the top student of the year 2022-2023.
Lisa, how are you today?
Hi, thanks for having me today.
I'm super excited for this talk, for this conversation, and I really want, I really
share the ideas of the podcast.
And I think that women deserve to be well represented.
Thank you.
I'm honored.
I feel blessed and lucky to have you here and very curious, really very curious about
you as a person.
So I'll begin with this nice first question.
I'm not sure whether it's easy, but at least it's simple, which is, if your friends, the
people who know you best and love you most could describe your personality, what would
they say about you?
I really love this question because it is full of, you know, self-awareness and I really
love that.
So I say my friends would probably say that I am outgoing and sometimes my head is in
the clouds, but I'm walking on the earth.
So I think big and I really try to act big.
And the people who know me, they notice this as well.
But still, I'm a very easy person to communicate with.
And I love to share a good conversation or to think of something great and to think how
we can make this world a better place to live.
But I also can talk about music and such daily things.
So, yeah, that's probably my answer.
Thank you.
I love that answer.
And it makes me wonder because too many people at some point in their life, they don't
have their head in the cloud anymore.
They give up.
They feel, oh no, the big dreams are impossible.
Let's just live a realistic life.
But in reality, it kills their soul.
How did you find that seemingly almost expected tendency for every person to face some
difficulties and then give up on all their dreams for some reason?
How do you stay a dreamer in a world where many people give up way too soon?
So actually, this question is really interesting because there are moments when I also
give up and they do not last forever.
But still, it has become very noticeable for me, especially when I entered the
university, because my major is very connected to unexpected changes, to some
disappointment and so on, because I study international relations and things change
too fast. And one day you dream of a prosperous future for the world.
You believe in the United Nations.
And then the second day, everything crushes and falls apart.
And I think the way that helped me go through this and feel that we still can dream and
we still can think big is when I realized that there are people who achieved something
that you dream of.
There are people who found the way how to implement your dreams in real life.
And somehow they found out how to make all of that work.
And when I started to gain more experience in my life, when I kind of started growing out
of that childish perspective of the world, I realized that sometimes dreams are not only
dreams, that they are your final goal.
And all you need to do is just some strategy and you need to meet some people.
You need to find out your next steps.
And that's it.
So I started to perceive dreams as something more realistic and as something that I can
actually work on.
So, yeah, this thought keeps me keeps me dreaming.
And I believe that one day I will be able and not just me, many people that surround me
will be able to achieve something that was their dream in the past.
Thank you. And I love that you mentioned it's about meeting some people.
How different is that compared to making friends?
Is it similar that you make friends, but you're together changing the world?
Is it more that you convince and portray a vision that people feel excited about?
And so you work together, although it's not really friends, but more as colleagues working
towards a better future.
Or how is that?
Because some people might be confused.
They say, oh, no, I don't even know how to make friends because friendship, I didn't make
friends since childhood.
It's or a university.
It's so easy there, but outside it's so complicated.
So how can you explain the difference so that women who want to change the world will
understand how is that networking similar or different to simply the way they made friends
before?
I would say that making friends and making partners are very, very different things,
especially for me personally.
And I really felt that when I entered the field of NGOs and NGO management, my circle of
friends is very, very small.
But I still know a lot of people who can help me implement some projects or to help me find
some solutions or people who I can work with on some vision, as you mentioned.
So basically, you just, you know, you just collect some contacts or you ask people you
already know about whether they know a person who is eager to change the world in this
particular way that you are dreaming of.
And you just contact them and you're saying, hi, my name is so and so.
And I heard you are very great so and so.
And I have this vision.
Maybe we could work on that.
And yeah, you don't really have to invest in those relationships like you do with your
friends. You don't need to be like very emotional or you don't really need to share your
personal experiences or maybe, I don't know, something that bothers you and you wouldn't
like to share that with people.
You can just work on changes and that in most cases, this shared goal and shared vision
is enough because you know why you are working together, why you know each other and how
you both can help each other.
Thank you, Lisa.
That's really, really cool.
But I'll play the devil's advocate a little bit.
You know, some people who often don't change the world, they're a bit stuck in their
ways. They would criticize that and they will say, look, we didn't vote for you or give
you permission to change the world and how you see fit.
Who made you the right person to decide what is positive for the world or what is
negative? Maybe I like pollution.
Maybe I like to just have GMO food or maybe I love corruption or whatever it is.
So what would be your answer to such people who say, oh, you're the one who's judging
what is positive.
I didn't tell you it is positive for me.
So why are you doing it?
Which can be something that some women can worry about, the criticism that people tell
them, oh, who are you to believe your idea is good enough, etc.?
First of all, we all should remember that criticism is inevitable.
So you will hear it almost during each stage of your life or your activities and so on.
And it is very normal.
People can say either that you are doing too much or that you are doing not enough and
so on. Or maybe you are doing the wrong thing.
But actually, in the professional field of changemakers, I would say that like this,
there are two common truths.
First is that there always will be a need for advocacy.
What is advocacy?
Advocacy is the process of communication with your target groups, the groups towards which
your changemaking is directed.
And second, criticism sometimes is a positive sign that your work is noticed by someone.
And of course, you will need to do some analysis to find out whether your solution is
appropriate, whether it works in this society, in this community.
But if some people just come to you and say, hey, we don't need any equality or maybe we
don't need your solutions, we are fine with bad education and so on.
It's very important to refer to your vision to make sure that other people like your
partners, your colleagues, the people who you're working with on that, they share this
as well and that you have the support of the community mostly in which you're going to
implement that.
But I would say the dialogue is an important part of any changemaking.
I would say it's the framework for everything.
So you cannot go and change someone's life without their permission.
But still, you will need to find out if that criticism is constructive.
If it is true, if it has some rationale to this, to that.
And yeah, that's probably all you just sometimes you need to rely on yourself and on
your vision. But still, a dialogue is a solution to a lot of problems.
And through advocacy, for instance, you can explain to those people who say that
pollution is good for them.
You can say, well, will you say that in 50 years when you will run out of your breath
very quickly because the air is so polluted?
Or for instance, will you say that you are OK with bad education and corrupted education
system if your grandchildren will not be able to read or to find decent jobs because their
education level is so low?
And will you be good with bad doctors who cannot cure your illnesses because they don't
know how to do that because of corrupted systems and so on?
It doesn't necessarily involve a debate, for instance, but you really need to show what
is your position, to understand their position and to find some common ground between
them. Thank you.
And is that the definition of advocacy or how would you explain it to normal people who
might not be involved with NGOs or with international relations and debating?
What do you mean advocacy?
It sounds fancy.
We're simple people with simple lives.
So how can you explain it to them?
Is it that that you share your perspective, understand their perspective, find common
grounds? Or what does it mean specifically in the way that you want to apply it to change
the world? Basically, I would agree with your definition.
So advocacy is the process of communication when you represent your ideas, when you try
to explain why do you believe in them and you try to make that explanation, find the
right people, the target groups so that they feel they have enough information about what
you are going to do and to support your further actions.
So basically, by advocacy, you promote your activities and you make them more visible
because sometimes you may have a very great big idea, but no one knows about that and
no one can support you as a consequence.
So basically, advocacy has two purposes.
First of all, to demonstrate your idea, to open it to the world.
And second, to make sure that your idea is supported and that you can go on with that.
Thank you. And you spoke very eloquently, of course, about everything that you're
involved with.
At the same time, what are your current goals or current visions to help people around
you, help your community, help Ukraine?
What are you working on so that you share your vision with maybe some people who are
listening who could be interested as well?
So basically, my main focus is on education.
And it doesn't necessarily imply the regular education in schools, but also education in
general, like enlightening and other similar synonyms.
So to illustrate my activities better, I can name several projects I'm working on
currently. So first of all, I am an alumna of Teach for All, which is an international
network of national NGOs that are working on the issue of educational equality.
So what did I do?
I spoke from the position of a student.
And I proposed my solution as a student to the problems that are in the education system
because it is really important because students are usually they are not included in the
process of decision making.
And that makes the system not adapted to their needs.
So I was making sure that everything a student need is heard and taken into account.
So that is my first activity.
I this project is currently on hold because I have already graduated and I am too old
for being a student advisor in schools.
Jokes aside, I still provide some advice, but not as regularly as I did.
And I moved on to next projects, which are also which make me feel passionate about them.
So I volunteer for two NGOs.
One of them is KyivNotKyiv, which is an online media that shows opens Ukraine to the
world and speaks about Ukraine's history, Ukraine's background, context and so on, so
that foreign audiences can understand what is Ukraine, aside from war, aside from good
people and fine cuisine.
So we make deeper dives and we really want to we really want the world to know Ukraine
and to understand it better so they can love it more.
So I work with them as a volunteer and also I volunteer at the NGO STEM is Fem, which
also promotes gender equality in the field of STEM sciences.
And they encourage Ukrainian girls and young women to choose the professional path they
really feel passionate about.
But they cannot join it because of stereotypes or maybe a small female representation in
the field and so on.
I am not a STEM student, but I share their goal.
And I think that we as a society should do everything in our power to unleash the
potential of youth.
So I also work with them and I help them develop and involve more young women and girls.
So to sum up, I believe that information is power and education is a key to information.
And it also helps show all the prospects, all the all different paths that a person can
choose to go with.
So I believe that a change in education can solve a lot of problems that stem from
education and or from lack of it or maybe from problems in education and so on.
So as I grow professionally, I still plan to work with education, to work with
non-governmental programs because they are closer to local communities, to society, to
people at large.
And yeah, we really need those civic efforts in order to to proceed with that change
making. Thank you.
And I love what you shared about how you are communicating to the world about Ukraine
that is beyond the war and good people as well.
At the same time as a Ukrainian, you have experienced the full scale invasion of February
24th. So it's important to share your story so people realize how did you experience that
day? Did you believe it?
Not believe it that and now and after 2020, like we're way, way ahead in the future.
Something like that could happen.
How did you feel?
How did your friends and family react?
And importantly, did it change you as a person?
Maybe it made you more grateful or unable to plan too much for a while because all plans
were destroyed. Or how was that experience and your evolution because of it from then
till today?
So, yeah, my story is very interesting because I'm an international relations student and
generally I should have known more about the war situation and the military threat to our
country. But, you know, a few weeks before the invasion, I was very much advocating the
idea that no war will happen because it is so illogical.
It is so it will take too much resources from the Russian Federation and they will not go
for it because who would like to kill their own country and so on?
Like I was on the logical side of the problem and that kind of blinded me and I did not
expect the invasion.
And when I was when the invasion started, I was in a different region from my hometown and I
woke up. I wanted to go to the lessons, but I saw a lot of notifications, a lot of missed
calls like I didn't know what happened.
And I first saw two messages, one from my best friend.
She asked me if I were all right.
And she asked me to contact to reach out to her whenever I can, as soon as possible.
And the second message was from my boyfriend.
He told me that he hopes everything will be all right and that everything like he didn't
specify what everything will end soon and so on.
And I was super confused.
And then only then I decided to check the news.
And then I saw that Russia started a war and everything became clear.
And I called my family back in my hometown to ask if they were all right, because my
hometown is in the Kiev region and it suffered a lot.
It is actually in the Bucha district.
So, yeah, it was partially destroyed during the first month of the war, of the full scale
invasion. And fortunately, I was on another side of the country, which was kind of more
safe, but still.
And I called my family to ask if they were all right.
I called my grandma, which was in the hospital with COVID, like, you know, February 24th of
2022 was the day when COVID disappeared because there were more important problems.
And I called her in the hospital and she was like as cool as a cucumber.
She told me everything will be all right.
She is not afraid of anyone, especially of the Russians.
Like as if they didn't bother her at all.
And she really had that heart of steel back then.
And I called my dad and I was so overwhelmed that I began crying and he told me not to
cry. Like, why am I crying?
They will fight for me.
They will defend me and everything will be OK.
My dad joined the Territorial Defense Forces like the very first days.
So he was there, he was in Bucha, he was in Irpin, he was in Borodanka, in all the places
that were destroyed and attacked.
And now he is in the regular armed forces of Ukraine and he is about to go to the
frontline. So, yeah, I felt the most wide range of emotions I could.
I physically was safe, but there was a lot of unease on my soul and inside me.
And I really questioned every life choice I had made, like especially my major
international relations.
I was watching those UN sessions till the midnight and I heard nothing.
I was super disappointed.
And all the foreign aid was coming so slow, to my opinion, like I was outraged.
And now I perceive everything in a more logical way because everyone got used to the
full scale invasion and everyone is more calm than a year ago.
But I still think that this experience was life changing.
And you asked me if I feel like my personality has changed or no.
And I would say that I have definitely changed since last year.
I have become more mature and I realized that this world is not as perfect as I
thought. And I used to think that we live, that right now we live in the best time
possible with all those informational technologies development and so on and
healthcare improvements.
But does that matter if your neighbor has gone insane and invaded your country and
tries to kill everyone in your country, to kill all the people regardless of their
sex, age, life status, position, their place of residence and so on?
And I started to appreciate life more.
And I have become unable to make long term plans because, first of all, I think if the
situation will allow me to live, to move on, to make life choices and so on.
But after a lot of reflections and a lot of thinking, I came to a conclusion that I do
move in the right direction, that I need to keep going with every my life decision that I
questioned last year and that I really need to put my every effort and everything from my
visions for the future for the benefit of my country.
And it is very possible, like, you know, as I said, information is the key to everything.
And you can use information as your weapon and as your tool to everything.
You can open the doors with information and so on.
Unfortunately, I am not able to defend my country physically because I lack training,
but I still do everything in my capacity and in my capabilities to find the way to make my
country somehow stronger.
Thank you so much, Liza.
That was really moving.
And all I can say is Slava Ukraini.
Hero, I am Slava.
Thank you so much for sharing your voice, for advocating for your position and points.
And thank you for being part of this podcast and inspiring other women with your story and
your energy.
I wish you all the success in the world.
And thank you for participating.
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a great time, a great conversation, and I hope it inspires some people and women
especially to make the decisions they were afraid of and to share their stories, share
their experience and become better people.
Thank you.
