E281 Nat Isabel

Hello. My name is Aziz and I'm the son of a divorced mother. She is really my superhero. That's why it's important for me to support women to share their experiences, their uniqueness, personalities, and perspectives about this world. In these difficult times in human history, we need to bring the people of the world together. And when we hear the voices of women, when we listen to real lives of women from other countries, we connect our cultures without differences or stereotypes. And we get inspired by their stories to live a better life. That's what this podcast is all about. My guest today is not Isabel. Isabel is an art expert and researcher living in Munich, Germany. Isabel is ancestrally 50% German, 25% Omani, and 25% Congolese. She has a PhD in 2020 in systems theory, cultural policy, and museum management. Isabelle published her second book in April 2023 about her Afro-German history called Hot Mixed Girl, and she is working on her third book to be published in 2024 by Ruth Ledge on art advisory and collection. Isabelle has a management business founded in 2021 and an animal rescue and foster organization founded in 2017. She's a dancer enjoying ballet and modern dance and she works as an art expert and and a writer in fine art and for private clients in the insurance industry and also has worked for galleries, art dealers and auction houses in the past. Isabel, how are you today? I'm very well, thank you. How are you? I feel blessed. I feel very, very lucky to spend this time with you and very curious about you. So I'll begin with this nice first question. If your friends and the people who know you well could describe your personality, what would they say about you? I think if they're being generous, if they're being kind, I think people would say mentally flexible, if that is a personality trait at all, and fearless to a certain degree. Yeah, I'd say if they're being kind, that's what they would say. I love that. Let's begin with the fearlessness because an important part of this podcast is inspiring women's confidence and their ability to go out of their comfort zone. What beliefs about life or experiences or things allowed you to become fearless and how can other women learn from that to find their fearlessness? So I think it's more born out of a necessity in that I kind of had to be fearless in many ways because of the circumstances that I was born into that I lived in because I always being like a mixed race person in Germany, I always stood out a lot and I was always a little bit, Yeah, like sticking out like a sore thumb. So you can't really hide, you can't be inconspicuous, you can't really get away with anything. Like you always have to be incredibly courageous, and people are going to look at you and everyone's going to talk. And you kind of just have to live with that knowledge and that awareness. So that in a way forces you to become at least somewhat comfortable functioning outside of your comfort zone. So I'm not saying it's a fun experience, wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but at least for me, I think in a way it also has helped me become who I am. Thank you and I'm happy that it helped you become better rather than feel bitter. At the same time, what are the ramifications of that? Do you feel like you're someone who has been somehow uprooted that you grew up without the sense of community that would be to someone who forced into extreme individualism from the beginning? Or how did it affect you? How did you sense it as someone who grew up in Germany while you if you grew up in the Arabic world or somewhere like that, you look like you blend in more. Maybe at first I would blend in more. But I think just my my family history is so scattered all over the planet. wouldn't really, I would always be a bit different from everybody else. So in a way, I've been quite integrated into my community that I grew up in, even though it was like predominantly white and German. So a lot of my friends and family are white and German, but at the same time, there's always been like a certain level of alienation or detachment, where I kind of always had to make an exception for myself, it makes it on the upside, difficult to compare yourself. So that is good for your confidence, because you just you just realize there's really no point in comparing, especially when women talk about how they feel about their bodies. It's just like, you kind of you realize it's a futile effort, and you just don't do it. So I think it's been, there's been upsides and downsides to it. And yeah, it's like a mix of integrated, being able to sort of switch around like a chameleon, just like put on different identities and take them back off when you need to. But at the same time, there's always like a bit of alienation and distance. So it's like you can't just pick one, you have to have both. Thank you. And you mentioning that you have different identities you can put on and switch them off, etc. Is that related to you being mentally flexible? Or what did you mean with that? How is it related to what you shared? I think that is part of it. That is part of the whole mental flexibility aspect. But what I also meant by that is to sort of, if you're confronted with an obstacle, at least that's how I feel, I deal with it. I am good at adjusting while I'm going through it and then sort of making it work. And that requires some mental flexibility to be able to say, okay, I'm like gonna have to be flexible about my means of getting from A to B. I'm just going to be like stubborn about getting from A to B, but like how I'm going to do it. I just have to adjust constantly as I'm going along, just making it up, winging it. I'm able to do that. That's, I would say like one of my defining qualities, I guess. So yeah. And I love that. What's your advice for people? Because too many people suffer from paralysis of analysis, where rather than being flexible and figuring out the by doing it. They're waiting for the perfect plan before they begin and then often they die with their art and their music and their hearts. Do you have anything that maybe you remind yourself of when you might feel that you need a plan but there is no plan, you just know you have to wing it or advice for people so that they will be able to jump into the pool and then figure out how it happens as they swim? I'm not sure if this is a quote by Ernest Hemingway, or if it's like one of those fake quotes, but it's a good one. It's the first draft of anything is shit. And by that, I mean, especially with writing, like that is a good example with the writing, you kind of have to be okay with the idea that when you first start doing something, it's not going to be perfect, you don't want anyone to see it or read it. And the same way, if you decide to like deep clean your home and declutter, you it's going to look worse before it looks better, like it's going to be chaotic. And with many things that I'm working on, at first, it just looks like, yeah, absolute chaos, like what is she doing? And then in the end, it does come together. And you have to be okay with sort of being shit at something when you first start taking a while to figure it out. Just because otherwise, there is that paralysis when people want to write something, and they want immediately when sort of things, the words come to the page or to the screen, they want it to be perfect in the version that is then going to be out there in the world, when really you have to realize the version that you're going to create is going to go through 10 different revisions before it's actually ready. And with a lot of things, I think you kind of have to remind yourself of that. That would be my advice to be comfortable with things being terrible at first, and then being better. And also to be motivated. That's something that I do, I kind of just get started with something. And then it's Okay, after that, if I don't get started, if I wait too long, I'll never do it like I know myself. So that's why I will sort of set the first, like do the first step, and then I'm more motivated to keep going. Like if I want to start learning something, like, for example, working with ceramics or something, then I'll just get started. And then it's much easier to keep going and not just like, oh, yeah, I kind of always wanted to, but I haven't yet. Yeah, I love that. And it makes me think since you're discussing writing, there are many writers who say that writers bleed on the page, it's absolutely painful. Even me when I do like writing in a way that is creative, it almost feels like you're giving birth and it's like a lot of pain until you get it done and you create your creation. So to you, what interested you or got you fascinated with writing? Is it that you desire expressing yourself and because of your unique background, you know that you have a unique perspective? Is it that you enjoy the process of creativity and you love that pain of bringing an idea to life? Or is it that you enjoy the solitude of like almost journaling, but you're learning and you're sharing with others? Or what is the big fascination? All of the above. So I guess I've always sort of been, I've always gravitated towards writing, like even when I was like a little kid, I would love writing stories. It was mainly like spooky stories. I don't know why, but I loved writing like scary stuff. Like when I was really little. And then during my first years of uni, I would write essays, like cultural commentary essays just for fun and publish them online. And it was really just because I love organizing. my thoughts, but in a way that then will help other people ideally understand something as well. So it's like it's not entirely self-centred, but in a way it is just like the organizing my thoughts thing. Then I sort of took the route of becoming a researcher more and that was just I enjoyed the process of collecting information and then synthesizing it and turning it into something else. So that is really enjoyable. And then with my second book, that was a bit more personal, like it was also it's quite research focused, but there's a lot of personal commentary in there and a lot of stories about myself in my life. And that was, in a way, even like a step above that it was like a therapeutic measure, almost like I'd had collected all these little things and stories and articles and parts of books and stuff. And I'd like 10 years worth of stories, and then all my memories and all the things that I've always kind of wanted to say. So for me, it was incredibly therapeutic to connect the theory, the discourse, or the research that is out there with my observation, my life, other women's stories, and to sort of bring it all together and construct it around an axis that I feel was missing before. So it's also, again, quite self serving, and that I organized my thoughts, but also because I felt some people might actually benefit from it when they read it. And like this is great because it does establish connections that they might not have seen before. So it's all of the above. It's like for mental health reasons, it's really fun. I think it's helpful. I think it's a great way to leave a legacy. And also it's quite luxurious to have the time to write and sort of the peace of mind. So if I ever find myself on vacation in like a beautiful place and I can take some time out of my day to write, I feel like everything is good in life. So yeah. That's a wonderful answer and it makes me think, as a researcher and you said that the book is able to connect things for the audience or the readers in a way they wouldn't have connected otherwise, well the topic of the day is AI. Do you believe that AI could replace what you have done, or that humans, if they focus on what you have done, they're irreplaceable? Like, what's your opinion on it? Some people are worried. They're like, oh my God, AI is taking over all the creative endeavors. And you spoke about connections that people wouldn't have made otherwise, which by definition I believe AI cannot make anyway because it's based on human existing knowledge. What's your perspective? I think this is a tough question because I don't know enough about the quality of writing or research that AI produces. like I've seen people like testing, like writing a curatorial text using AI, and they were reasonable, like they weren't too bad, because they were able, like the the the programs that they were using were able to use the language and sort of the they were like pulling relevant bits of information and connecting them in like a sound way. So I think for just kind of conveying information, might actually be very good at doing that. I think there are certain nuances to the way people, that's the thing. You can, when you read something, you can sort of get an idea of who the person is that is writing and like who's telling the story. And I feel that might be difficult to really like hit the right tonality and sensibility and way of telling a story that is specific to one person. When you read James Baldwin, he has a very particular kind of way of telling his stories or presenting his analysis. So I'm not sure. Maybe in the future, who knows? A lot of things have happened that we thought impossible many years ago. But I think that might be a bit more difficult to recreate a certain person's style or just the way their brain works, to do that seems complicated. And how is that related to art? Because it sounds to me exactly like you as an art curator, as someone who is exploring the minds of some artists and the way they express themselves through their art pieces. Because maybe someone, even women who are beginner artists, they're looking for their voice. I believe that this is like very instructive when it comes to voice. So what made you interested in art? How was art related to what you said right now? And why dedicate your life fully to art more than anything else in this world? Okay, I'm going to give this answer in different parts because those were a lot of questions all wrapped into one. The first thing, how I became interested in art in conjunction with why I decided to dedicate my life to it rather sort of, yeah, just structure all my activity around it. It's always, once again, same with writing, been something that I've always loved to do myself, like even as a small child. And I grew up, I guess I was lucky in a family where that was also valued, like learning about art and also, yeah, being creative yourself and expressing yourself artistically. So I guess it always felt somewhat natural. But also, I think what I loved, and I mean, I work in the art world, the art market, also, not just like analyzing the institutional side. And I think it was, I went to an auction, like a Sotheby's Evening auction in London at one point, very early on. And I loved the circus of it. Like I love the spectacle, the absolute insanity, like just the energy like everything about it was so completely detached from the from real life. And I've always loved film, like film was my first love, and I feel like sort of fine art came second. But in a way, there are some parallels in that it is make believe or it's a fantasy world in a way. But then again, on the other hand, the market is not fantasy, it's just a business. So it's just something that excites me. And I love that it's a way of functioning within a capitalist system, but still enjoying it and still finding beauty and entertainment and enjoyment without causing too much damage because I think it's somewhat uncontroversial compared to a lot of other industries. Maybe this is a bold statement. Some people would debate me on that. But yeah, like, for me, it's always felt like a deal of marrying two things that I need, like staying entertained and also making some money. Like you can do that there. And then how does art relate to what I just said about AI or writing? Or could you please just repeat? When you said that AI cannot really replace or replicate your ability to get an insight into how the mind of some person works in their unique way, and especially writers, how they and write and express some unique fingerprint about their personality and brain. I am saying, are too, do you see the unique fingerprint of every artist within it? Which relates to, is that what is called like your voice as an artist? What's your advice to some women artists who are looking to find their voice? So that specifically that part, not AI, but the part where you said every writer can express something and share part of their soul and their brain that is unique to them? I'm thinking, because this is a tough one. As a non-practicing artist, or rather, I just do it for fun. I'm not working, I'm not selling anything. But I know I've sold a lot of art in my life. If I were to give actual advice to young women artists, I guess it depends on what their ambition is. If it's just about learning more about themselves and their practice, or if it's about turning it into a career, because I feel like there's very cynical advice that I can give that people might not want to hear, but the art world is not super esoteric in a way. It does have a system and it follows a particular kind of logic, just a little bit different from other markets, maybe. And I think it's a lot about branding, it's a lot about connections, and it's a lot about marketing and presenting yourself, and it requires a certain level of self-importance, even, I feel. So, and that is quite different from what you might want to foreground or consider when you're more interested in learning about yourself and your practice as an artist. So really, it's like if you want to make money, at least when you're young, I feel like you have to be okay with sort of dancing to someone else's music if that is like a client that wants to commission a work or a dealer that kind of owns your ass versus sort of just figuring out what you want to do and create on your own without like that aspect of actually selling in mind. So I think it's, I feel like it's too touchy for me to give like, definitive advice, it really kind of depends on what you're going for and what is important to you as an artist, because I feel it's completely valid, I have to make that point to want to earn enough money off your art to make a good living. Because it's unfair that people have this romantic idea of like the completely uncorrupted artist, what are they going to live off? You know, they have kind of, they have to make a living. So I think it's absolutely fine if people factor these decisions, put this into their creative decisions also. I just wanted to make that point as well. Thank you and that makes me think, since your first love is movies and films and you spoke about how it was fascinating to you, how it was a spectacle when you went to an auction house. Did you learn from movies and even spectacles things that helped with your personal branding and that you can share maybe with the women who might be listening or people? Because since it's your first love and you spoke earlier too about putting different personalities, identities, that sounds like you being an actress who can act up with the self-importance that you spoke about in order to create a personal brand. that gives you success in this capitalistic world? Well, first thing I can say about film specifically is that in a way, it combines many different art forms, ideally masterfully, meaning there's fine art, the visual, the composition of an image of a scene. So you've got that aspect. And then you've got writing, you've got the art of screenwriting, of creating dialogue and character and story, and then translating that into a scene. And then there's like the whole aspect of music and like so many things come together that in a way are like plucked from the different disciplines in art, I would say. And that's why I guess it always was my first love because like starting from film, you can sort of venture into all these different areas. And about the whole creating a story or a character, I think and this is like common advice. So maybe I'll just like connect them. People say that if you want to change something, or if you want to achieve something, it can be helpful to develop almost an alter ego, like that your self perception can be a starting point for making changes or for achieving certain things that you otherwise due to limiting beliefs, might feel like you can't achieve them. And I personally also feel that sometimes when I'm when I'm client, a dealer or something, it just sort of like clicks, and I slip into this whole persona. And it just becomes a lot easier. So I think yes, definitely, like putting on this alter ego that you've created for yourself that you want to show up as and just like wearing them as a suit can be really helpful to give you that extra bit of energy and confidence. And it's okay to look at it as not acting, but being like, I'm not always this person, it's fine. Like days, I'm just absolutely useless. But now this is the suit that I'm wearing. I think it's okay. There's nothing inauthentic about it. I agree. I understand. And I want to like, understand your opinion about that, because that's part of like, fake it till you make it as well. It can be understood in that way. Do you believe that is a temporary phase before you work on other things for women to develop their self-esteem? Or can you internalize that confidence and therefore build your self-esteem by faking it till you make it? Because we live in a time where they're because of social media, society, you, for example, you have been like talked about, maybe even gossiped about all your life, which is this destructive to your self-esteem. What is the proper way for women to increase their self-esteem to develop it? And is that a persona or a fake it till you make it a temporary phase before they do other things to find that self-esteem? Or does it lead and translate into increases in self-esteem? I actually think it's not like a temporary phase or like a bandaid. I think it can be very helpful in getting to where you want to be. Like ideally you would construct this persona in a way that it reflects what you really want to do and what you really want to be. So ideally, you would fake it till you make it, as in you would at some point, more and more embody this person that you really want to be with her skills and knowledge and abilities and sort of general way of carrying herself. I think I mean, I'm also working on a lot of different things of what I want to achieve and put out there into the world and what I want to become. and what I'm still learning. And that's like my journey towards becoming this person that I really want to be. So I think it's in no way detrimental. I think it's like a very good strategy to sort of, yeah, walk towards your goals. I think that's super helpful. And ideally one day you would become her. Thank you. You mentioned too that it's luxurious to find the time to write. And there is something called Parkinson's Law that anytime you have all the activities will fill it so that you can always be busy no matter what because whether activities are mundane or important they will fill up your time so as advice to people because or in particular women for productivity do you set strong boundaries or how do you go about productivity to take care of your mental health of your body of your work without being a starving artist and find the luxurious time to write because otherwise other people might put things on your plate or work becomes all your life or how do you go about it? I don't think I'm a good role model to be honest because in the past I've overworked a lot. I'm working on what you just said, setting stronger boundaries and being a bit more mindful of time to rest, actual rest. And like, yeah, just how I structure my time and my days, because I haven't been very good at it in the past. Like I've been very focused on outcomes and achieving outcomes. And then if that meant that I was just physically exhausted and mentally exhausted, then so be it. And now I feel like recently, I've become a lot better at, yeah, just being more mindful of my resources that I have mentally and physically. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not one to give advice. It's still like a huge thing that I'm working on. We all are works in progress and in many ways, some pieces of art because they were incomplete, that adds so much more charm and value to them, rather than the already perfect ones. And to end this, I understand that you as a writer and you involved with art, you're also a thinker. What are you thinking about these days that is important for you to add more to your life or some insight that you wanted to share with others or anything that is the next level of evolution in your life, whether it's an idea or a concept or a behavior or a practice that you can share with the other women? Let me think. I think one thing that has really helped me in the past that I feel everyone should, or not should, if you don't feel you need it then don't, but I feel like everybody can use a little of it, is again, it's connected to fearlessness. Like I spent a substantial amount of time looking at things that were difficult in my life and in my past and really going in there, even if it's absolutely terrifying and difficult and really not a pleasant experience. And I have to say, it really, it's done so much for me, like I've found so much peace, and I understand myself so much better, like you're able to really pick apart your behavior, your patterns, the way that you react to certain things, people, situations, the way that you, yeah, sort of the way how your mind works and how you emotionally just operate. And sort of having that courage to go through this not super fun experience, I think the reward is so great that I think you should really consider it if you have anything that you're struggling with, rather than looking for help from the outside. what's like the toughest part, but I think the most effective is being able to really just, I guess, torture yourself through like that unsexy space where you really try to understand your inner workings and your past. So I think that would be like my biggest thing that I've learned in the past couple of years that I think everyone can benefit from. And also right now, I'm thinking about how to be softer, how to give people grace, how to try and understand what they might be struggling with, and then sort of factor that into my, my reaction and my perception of them. And yeah, my interactions with the world. That's something I'm working on now to not be like super stringent, but to try and see like the human and very messy aspect of people. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much, Isabelle. It was my privilege and my honor to interview you to share your voice to include you in this podcast. I wish you all the success all the evolution, all the self development and growth that you're looking for and thank you again for participating. Thank you for inviting me. It was lovely. It was very much fun.