Episode Transcript
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:00
Femininity is powerful and all its form exceptional women, rare girls must be appreciated in every way for their perspectives, actions, thoughts, and their unique ways of being. Such rare girls are inspiring. And this is what this podcast is all about. Hello, my name is Aziz and my guest today is Anastasia Moskalenko. Anastasia is a student of international relations at the Institute of International Relations. Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, Ukraine, she is the deputy chief of the politics and diplomacy club ambassador, which is a wonderful club, promoting many activities for the students at our institute. Hello, Anastasia. How are you today?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 1:09
Hello, I'm really glad to hear you again. And I'm really happy to be here. Thank you.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:14
Let's begin with whatever is on your mind, which could be anything, although I have a guess what it could be. But these days, what do you keep on thinking about often, that is a topic that demands your thought, your action, or demand your invites,
Anastasiia Moskalenko 1:37
you know, considering the context of ongoing events. So the war basically, I think the most basic thing one thinks about is probably the safety of yourself of your close once and of course of those who live near you. Once again, I'm quite lucky to have them to make to be in the place where it's relatively safe. So I think one of the chief things about which I think nowadays is how can I help others. First of all, basically, this is my most important contribution could be studying and do as much as I can, in my realm, in my own realm, as the chief deputy of the club, as a good student, maybe set an example for somebody else studying so that we can form a powerful community and built a bigger future. So that really keeps me going. Now.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 2:28
I like that. And I'm going to switch to a totally different direction, because I'm noticing the energy and it's very determined very strong. Do you feel you're a feminine person? Or do you feel yourself more masculine? Or both? How is your experience of that?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 2:48
In terms of energy, I would say that both feminine and masculine in ways to be honest, it's hard to define femininity and masculinity. And I think this applies more to maybe the visual appearances or some other thoughts that we might have from previous centuries maybe left, I really enjoy seeing women in, you know, governing positions, even now in Ukraine, I see how many how much women do to solve different issues. And the problem of deciding whether you're feminine or masculine is not an issue as of now because I think both genders are hopefully being represented equally as of now, as I see it. More and more people are yes, actually, people, I would say that. So in terms of defining myself, as well, like I'm a person, so I would share the qualities of traditional feminine, so the same traditional masculine qualities. And I think determination will to work are not really shared by genders. It's not either feminine or masculine. So it just something that the person feels and goes forward to,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 4:04
then what does it mean for you to be a person,
Anastasiia Moskalenko 4:09
it's about all kinds of qualities, one could feel to grow in themselves. So to say, for somebody, the key trait they want to have is kindness. For some it's so so to say the wish to either govern or to be the decision maker in some questions. For some, it's important to be an example for that for others. And some really say their bar for, for example, be a good person as a mother or a dad, which is also a good thing and everybody's unique perspective is what they put into that definition of being a person.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 4:48
Thank you. And let's return to the topic of the war because that was such an insightful and wise answer. I know you had a lot of thought Before this war, about Non Proliferation, about politics about everything. So what are your thoughts about this invasion? What do you see from your own perspective as Anastasia herself as well as someone who is interested in international relations, politics, and armament and things like that? And what's your perspective on the next steps that could be happening in this war.
Anastasiia Moskalenko 5:32
From my own perspective, as you said, like from my Anastasia perspective, of course, it is an act of violence against my nation against basically my own house and against my own dignity as a citizen of this country, of this country, or Ukraine. Of course, this is some kind of instinct, which in you know, just wakes up and you immediately it's almost as if, like, You, you, the feeling is almost like your family members are being taken away from you, you cannot do the regular things. To say this is discomfort is not to say anything. So of course, this is a violent act. Now, regarding the whole creation of the state and the perspective of not a regular citizen, but more of a person to act in the sphere of international relations in the future. I think and about which I'm quite glad. Ukraine is now at the center of change of the whole world, I would even say, the world system, felt that need for being rebuilt for being made in you once again, this happened after the First World War, this happened after the Second World War. By no means I'm taking this and I really hope this will not take any more escalations, I really hope it will not. But it seems to me that the world's came to the point when it stands when it stood near the point of it needed some shake up, so to say, to wake up again. So I'm quite happy about the fact that Ukraine is that strong country, setting the example for other countries, sovereign states to actually stand together. And this is not only the war of so to say, this is the war, which is Russia, waging against Ukraine, against Ukraine, and Ukraine is obviously just defending itself. This is the war of both parts of the world. So to say this is the war of democracy against utilitarian regime. And once again, I think this system of the world is going to be rebuilt after this. After each rain and thunder, there comes sun, and good weather. So we really hope for the positive change afterwards. But for now, we must endure the struggle.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 7:50
That's really interesting. Please tell me more. How was the word order before? Why do you feel it needed a shake up? And what will be the next page that will be written? How would things be really different because of this role, Ukraine is playing and shaking up the world, as you said, and creating a new order.
Anastasiia Moskalenko 8:16
I think I will start with some notions with some notion, basically off historical memory. And since the World War, the second it has quite it has been fading, with some time. And after decades of basically no massive warfare when waged against members of the EU, or members of the democratic world. So to say, of course, there were wars, of course, and aware that there were a lot of conflicts in a way a lot of worse, bloody and really disgusting ones. But the center of democracy as in Europe and USA, we're not really shaken up with those words with those wars. Now, the war, which is happening right now is the one which is bound to shake up the whole world system, because it proved that none negotiations or sort of say, any kind of written agreements, they don't always work. Or it's rather sad that there always will be players of the international arena, which will eventually shake up the world, the world order the way they want, which is illegal, but I think the world will have to find the new decision for this. By this time, the decision was to create more agreements. And international law has facilitated the processes. But as of now, I think we have to find a new answer. There is no state which we which would be a global policeman to stop anybody waging a war against the state. So we have to find a new decision for this.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 9:55
Thank you. And thanks, you're staining tube itself. which is a big part of the conflict? How do you keep your mental health? Okay? What do you do either to distract yourself, or keep your optimism or not let this war rob you for have the will to live? And to keep on going. You said yes. It's like your family members being taken away from you, you can't focus on anything else. But also, it's important to keep going, what helps you do that? And how do you do it?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 10:33
Well, I would say that probably the key factor in all of this, and which helps me the most is the spirit is the Ukrainian spirit that we have right now, it feels almost as if the whole, truly the whole state has waken up. I wouldn't say from the sleep, but maybe from you know, a little nap. And I really feel the unity in everything we do, it feels that every random stranger on the street actually feels the same as you, you have you share the same aim, you share the same goals, you share the same vision of the future. And this is actually quite a powerful tool. Because in the recent days, I had the opportunity to just you know, take a stroll around the house at least. And just seeing people outside, trying to at least leave their regular lives, helps you to understand that someday, it will be peaceful someday, the old days would be back. And the motivation itself is quite natural in this way. So you feel that if there is future, if there is hope I have to work now I have to help with whatever I can with whatever I can do for others, so that we work towards our victory,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 11:52
Anastasia, honestly, it's always a privilege and a pleasure to spend time with you. And to ask you even more, because you're very interested in international relations, and this crisis made your specialty more relevant than ever. What were the original reasons why you started studying international relations? And did they change now and evolve because of the war and Russian aggression against Ukraine?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 12:28
Okay, so the initial reasons for that were probably quite personal. I think I really enjoyed different cultures, I enjoyed how different nations interacted. I always loved languages. And I think one of my first thoughts was actually journalism. But then I realized that I don't really want to write about somebody saying, you know, stating facts, or basically, highlighting some of the facts, I want to be able to make my own decisions, I want to be a decision maker. And so it kind of connected in the one broad sphere of international relations, both diversity of cultures, language learning, desire to actually desire to change, something to work for, the better. And it all tied together, I really hope so quite well, regarding this fear changing event in this course, I think, in the course of the recent and not only of this month, even more already, but in the course of recent years, we've seen some changes in the sphere of international relations, and all of them were quite connected to the, to that point of the system experiencing some kind of burnout, I mean, the world system, or the politics in the context we have used to digest them, and so to say. And, yes, international nations have taken their new loop off evolution. And we're yet to see where it's going.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 14:11
Thank you. And since you're staying in Ukraine and NTF itself, while a lot of millions and millions of Ukrainians left Do you believe that many of them will return to rebuild Ukraine or because of the destruction? The whole situation and many people who may be will start a new education abroad, new jobs and new life, they might not return? And therefore Ukraine will have a forced brain drain and a loss of people and potential to be rebuilt faster. What are your thoughts about this?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 14:51
You know, this topic has been the topic for, you know, brain food for so to say, for some time and at first, I was quite skeptical about some conclusions. Of course, people are in distress radiation when they're choosing safety above everything. So experiencing brain drain is it is not something provoked from the situation inside of the state, but rather than have the condition, which well, war is not something that we started. So of course, this is not dependent on us. And I think it was quite a debating debating state in this debate, I'm sorry, no debating statement at first. But now I'm quite sure, I'm actually really certain that yes, many people will, will come back and actually, even in the course of these couple of weeks. So I think it's the 45th Day Off the war for us. And even in the span of these couple of weeks, people have left the city in the first two or three days, and many have already came back. The streets are getting livelier, not only because people are actually coming out of the streets. But because there are many people coming to the city, even to the point that the mayor of Kyiv had to state that it's still not too certain to come back to the city because so many people already already wanted to come home to be here. The initial feeling of stress and maybe fear it has already passed. And the only thing which is left is now the determination and determination to stay strong to stand still until we actually get the victory. So I think even if Ukraine experiences some kind of brain drain, I think the majority will actually come back. And for those who don't, I actually have been in contact with some people who left for other states, but they're working for the best of Ukraine. So they're people writing articles about Ukraine, just staying abroad. They're trying out different methods of engaging the community abroad to help Ukraine they're doing some events, they're doing some fundraising campaigns, whatever they can to help.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 17:15
That's really hopeful and optimistic. I like that. And to ask you even deeper, some sociologists and psychologists argue that this war will cause a generational trauma within Ukrainians, where people will have a lot of PTSD, the whole society will be more negative, more shocked, a lot less alive and a lot less full of energy until the next generation that would not have this war experience. Do you believe this is a correct assessment? Or actually, like you're saying, and noticing that there will be more Joie de Vivre and appreciation for every moment and desire to rebuild and work hard. Even though people experienced the war, it didn't turn them into helpless victims, but rather into active participants who are rebuilding victorious Lee the country? What's your own perspective on this
Anastasiia Moskalenko 18:19
really interesting question, because I'm not an expert myself, but I'm the person living here and the one who can observe. So maybe I'm not the professor of sociology, but I'm the person to observe and actually to report life from the, from the place of events. So I would say that this forecast is somehow depressing. And fortunately, I don't think it's true. I don't think it's true. What I've seen right now, like in this couple of weeks, recent weeks, once again, the fear and distress are leaving, and there are more and more people, especially in the environmental of young people, students studying universities, young people working, they have the determination, and they have what it takes to actually rebuild the country. So I have no doubt about that. And we actually have the power to rebuild the state. Of course, some mental problems might be severe. And in some cases, of course, especially in the places where people have in some places, which are now being discussed in the media, which are being constantly attacked, and some cities which have been ruined to like literally zero houses standing right now. Of course, this is traumatizing to the point that the person doesn't actually see a way to not only rebuild but even create something new to start afresh. But in what maybe the key thing is which I believe is that if we stand together, everything will be possible. The motivation for now, and I think it serves not only for me, but for 1000s. And millions, actually on my compatriots here is that we're together and we share, we share the same vision of our future. And this essentially sharing the same vision is what defines the nation, the sovereign and independent nation. And until we have our victory, we won't stop. So it's something that serves as also as so say, life saving instinct, if you think about it, so this is the thing to work for. This is the goal. This is the country, the concentration of efforts where they go to thoughts for years Oh, go to this.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 20:46
Thank you very much. And I love your observation and how optimistic it is. And to ask you about your own assessment as well of victory, as you mentioned it, because some people argue that, if they were our beat will be like a signed peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine. There are many negative possible outcomes, such as Russia is just preparing for another invasion with a lot more force and a lot more ability in a couple of years. Or that if Russia loses that will keep on destabilizing Ukraine and creating negative situations, terrorist attacks, things like that, that will not allow Ukraine to prosper. What do you feel about it? What kind of victory is possible? And do you think that there is a really positive outcome that is possible right now, especially with the leadership of Russia still in place?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 21:52
Well, that's a fact that someday, there will be peace agreement, someday there's going to be an agreement at least. And of course, the most important points will be enshrined in the international documents, as always, we are yet to see how effective they're going to be. But our government has already been developing multiple ways of sustaining the peace as it shouldn't be actually. So to prevent Russia from breaking this negative these agreements, again, one of the most important probably systems of how to prevent it is to create the guarantee systems. So the guarantee system is basically the system of countries which also signed the document the agreement, and they are as responsible for the security of Ukraine as Russia is. Basically all participants are equally responsible and are obliged to are obliged not to worsen the conditions of the serenity, not to breach any contracts not to breach any agreements, signed with Ukraine. Basically, this actually makes just a more powerful international document. And I really hope that if such a document will be signed, then it's going to be one of the new models, examples, maybe yes, role models for next, next generation documents, international documents signed in the future. As we have seen already, many of those agreements signed before are not working properly, some of them are getting breached. And to stop that, we might want to think about a new system of how to stop it.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 23:32
Thank you very much. And on a more personal note, one piece returns and things and Kyiv are back to normal and life is rebuilt even better than before. What are some of the things you miss that you look forward to experiencing? Again, with people,
Anastasiia Moskalenko 23:53
probably first and foremost is going back to the university. This is basically the community and in which I am right now, of course, I want to see my other fellow students, friends, family members being alive and well. Other veterans, competitors as well, as well, so to say being healthy. This is the main point and I think there is no particular thing which you miss when it comes to states like this. This is overall the feeling of peaceful life. But you know, as of now, I can't really say that I missed the feeling. missing something is not knowing when it's going to be back. It's not the feeling of nostalgie it's a feeling. I actually have a very certain opinion regarding this. I know the peaceful times are going to be back in some time. So for now, I'm just waiting for them to come.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 24:57
I love your optimism and to me In a positive and even more positive, since you had a lot of positive things that you shared note, what kind of advice do you have to your fellow Ukrainians or message or something you want to share to support their spirits during these times?
Anastasiia Moskalenko 25:19
Oh, this one. I think in times like this, all of us serve as advisors for each other. I want to be saying one species here, I think the only phrase matters for now stay strong and stay alive. First thing we have to care about is our own safety. And then, of course, right after this, the safety of our family members of friends and loved ones. And I believe that if you're safe, you can do anything because we're together. We stand together here on our native land. We're just protecting it and we don't have we don't even have the right to fall. We don't have any opportunity to do that. So I truly believe in our united and strong victory.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 26:05
Thank you, Flavio cry uni. And I always have a great day. Thank you. Great day to you. I wish your blessings victory and all your dreams to come true. Thank you, Anastasia.
Anastasiia Moskalenko 26:20
Thank you so much. It was actually a really good, really pleasant talk. I really enjoyed that. Thank you so much.
